Transphobia is making me question everything

[Mason26]

On 8/28/2023 at 10:50 PM, Avra said:

I hear you, making friends is hard especially if you're already an introvert like me. Finding friends you can truly trust is even harder. I'm down to one, maybe 2 friends like that (and none of them are family).

 

 That's really cool! You're ahead of me if you're shopping in store for clothes. Amazon is my best friend for that right now hehe. 👀

 

Here's one science video that I found particularly interesting on the topic if you're interested:

https://youtu.be/kT0HJkr1jj4?si=6GD9vMFdb2S3pIDx

 

Also this isn't really science but if you want to hear a linguist's perspective on pronouns and neo pronouns, I also found this a good watch/listen:

https://youtu.be/Kh22m1QG6i4?si=DTkMYUfDNOdm0xLx

Don't let the title scare you - his conclusion, which I tend to agree with, is that kindness and respect are paramount.

I'm very close with my family, but only out to my mom (and even then, I'm not sure if she thinks I just "got over it" lol). While I do have friends I think would be supportive, I haven't come out to any of them yet because I want my siblings to know first. Also a lot of my friends have been drifting, so it's not only harder to make friends, but maintain those friendships as well. So at the moment I'm just kind of stuck, haha. I'm sorry you're not close with your family. It's good that you at least have one or two close friends. Sometimes you just need one person to keep you going.

 

I was a little scared at first shopping in the men's section, but I found out pretty quickly that no one really cares, haha. It could be because I pass sometimes, or maybe just because it's more socially acceptable for "women" to shop in the men's section than the other way around. I actually get more nervous when I'm in the women's section. Because I do pass as male sometimes, I'm worried people will think I'm a perv when I actually just need a sports bra. Again, no one has ever had a problem with it, but it's pretty rare that I need to shop in the women's section anyways. I'm not sure what it's like for a trans woman to shop in stores, but I wish you the best for when you're ready to try it.

 

What an awesome video! I've recently got into Vlog Brothers videos, so it's cool seeing Hank Green on there. While I did know a little about DSD, I learned a lot from this. I also like how at the end, he says something along the lines of "In a complicated world, we think we can at least count on sex being simple, but it's not. It's complicated like everything else." And if sex can be, why not gender too? Also this makes me wonder how common it is for trans people to be intersex.

 

And I've actually seen the pronoun video before, I really enjoyed it. It made me think about how weird it is that the language for referring to people is based around their private parts. Like in an alternate reality, we could have different pronouns for people based on their eye color.

[Mason26]

On 8/28/2023 at 11:01 PM, Avra said:

What they mean is "dress the way society thinks you should based on what they think your gender is". Clothing has no inherent gender other than what we have decided and that varies enormously by culture too. I got into a heated debate about this with my brother (more about the roles of women and men) until I finally just dropped it because talking to a brick wall is exhausting lol. Fabric is fabric, you should be allowed to wear what you're most comfortable in. Dress codes, when required, should be unisex as Mason pointed out.

Exactly. If it's professional for a woman to be wearing a skirt, why is it unprofessional for a man to wear the same thing?

[Mason26]

@AvraOh, I forgot! I have a video recommendation for you too! This is one of the most important videos I've seen in regards to figuring myself out. Also she's a trans Canadian, so that's pretty cool, haha.

 

[awkward-yet-sweet]

20 hours ago, RaineOnYourParade said:

Man, that sucks. Can't count the amount of times I've been told I look like a basic lesbian -- which I mean, they aren't exactly wrong, but still stings. Am man. Wrong gender, ma'am/sir. (Wrong sexuality too, but hey, whatever)

Not to mention the wrong image of what lesbians look like.... I've known a number of very feminine,  long-haired lesbians.  My sister being one of them.

[RaineOnYourParade]

7 minutes ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

Not to mention the wrong image of what lesbians look like.... I've known a number of very feminine,  long-haired lesbians.  My sister being one of them.

Exactly

[Avra]

2 hours ago, Mason26 said:

I'm very close with my family, but only out to my mom (and even then, I'm not sure if she thinks I just "got over it" lol). While I do have friends I think would be supportive, I haven't come out to any of them yet because I want my siblings to know first. Also a lot of my friends have been drifting, so it's not only harder to make friends, but maintain those friendships as well. So at the moment I'm just kind of stuck, haha. I'm sorry you're not close with your family. It's good that you at least have one or two close friends. Sometimes you just need one person to keep you going.

I'm the same way, close with most of my family, though we are drifting because of my secrets and ingrained homo/transphobia. I've told my dad, who seems ok with it and my sister who says she supports me but I get the sense she doesn't "agree" with me. Both of my brothers are very much in the camp of women are women and men are men and I've all but come out to one of them without outright saying it.

 

2 hours ago, Mason26 said:

I was a little scared at first shopping in the men's section, but I found out pretty quickly that no one really cares, haha. It could be because I pass sometimes, or maybe just because it's more socially acceptable for "women" to shop in the men's section than the other way around. I actually get more nervous when I'm in the women's section. Because I do pass as male sometimes, I'm worried people will think I'm a perv when I actually just need a sports bra. Again, no one has ever had a problem with it, but it's pretty rare that I need to shop in the women's section anyways. I'm not sure what it's like for a trans woman to shop in stores, but I wish you the best for when you're ready to try it.

I'm sure it's a variety of reasons - Canada does seem to be one of the more open minded nations depending on where you live of course. Glad it's working out for you. For me I have to roll the dice each time that it will fit and be the quality I'm hoping for. I have my size figured out but with some obscure Asian companies you never know. I have scored some dresses that I genuinely think I look good in and fit perfectly, (some of which are no longer sold 😥) that I would gladly wear in public if I wasn't so scared of being judged.

 

2 hours ago, Mason26 said:

What an awesome video! I've recently got into Vlog Brothers videos, so it's cool seeing Hank Green on there. While I did know a little about DSD, I learned a lot from this. I also like how at the end, he says something along the lines of "In a complicated world, we think we can at least count on sex being simple, but it's not. It's complicated like everything else." And if sex can be, why not gender too? Also this makes me wonder how common it is for trans people to be intersex.

Yeah it was eye-opening for me too. I actually found Hank Green because of SciShow, only found his other channel when he got cancer (he's now in remission, so great news).

 

2 hours ago, Mason26 said:

And I've actually seen the pronoun video before, I really enjoyed it. It made me think about how weird it is that the language for referring to people is based around their private parts. Like in an alternate reality, we could have different pronouns for people based on their eye color.

Glad you liked it! It has some edgy, niche perspectives but I found it interesting. Also fascinating to see how different other languages can be. I'm currently learning Swahili and there, they have no pronouns for he or she, just a completely gender neutral "they". You assess the person's gender from context, if it is even relevant to the conversation. Languages are so complex and diverse, and I'm convinced everyone should dabble in at least one language besides their own.

[Birdie]

30 minutes ago, Avra said:

I'm not sure what it's like for a trans woman to shop in stores

I roll into Torrid and they say, "Hello Birdie how are you today."

 

They already know I browse the clearance rack every weekend. 

 

Other shoppers also think I'm just another 60-year-old lady out shopping. 

 

Even when they call me about packages arriving they addressed me as ma'am. 

 

I don't have the least bit of problem.  

[Avra]

20 minutes ago, Birdie said:

I roll into Torrid and they say, "Hello Birdie how are you today."

 

They already know I browse the clearance rack every weekend. 

 

Other shoppers also think I'm just another 60-year-old lady out shopping. 

 

Even when they call me about packages arriving they addressed me as ma'am. 

 

I don't have the least bit of problem.  

I think you accidentally quoted me somehow. I didn't say that. 😛

 

Anyways curious how it would be for someone who hasn't transitioned, and probably doesn't want to, for personal reasons. In my case it would clearly be seen as crossdressing unless I would wear clothes with a lot of coverage, which generally isn't what I'm into.

[Avra]

3 hours ago, Mason26 said:

@AvraOh, I forgot! I have a video recommendation for you too! This is one of the most important videos I've seen in regards to figuring myself out. Also she's a trans Canadian, so that's pretty cool, haha.

 

Very heavy topic and very carefully presented. I love it! I see so many people defend women's or trans rights who get "owned" by the right simply because they aren't properly prepared to defend their position and so they're like "Aha gotcha!" It hurts me to see. 😥💔 This person clearly did their research and, I think, came to a solid conclusion, though it will definitely be dissatisfying to some.

[Mason26]

On 8/29/2023 at 1:50 AM, Tilly said:

 

I found this very useful. 

 

There's a LOT of aspects touched on here in a short space of time.

 

Just one thing to pick out. We don't routinely test chromosomes or hormone levels at birth, nor thereafter. Estrogen and testosterone receptors are an interesting aspect to this and hormones as part of sex (not just gender) are important but rarely raised by the 'anti-woke' brigade. And you almost never hear about genes including swapping out across chromosomes and recessive traits.

 

Anecdotal remark. Even when I was stick-thin as a moderately successful runner, my breasts and nipples were enlarged. Fast forward to when I finally started taking estrogen ... boom. My breasts ballooned in a few weeks. They're now DD cup and still growing. So much so that a research consultant at my hospital asked to take photos because they considered my breast growth to be highly unusual and they wanted to use this in teaching (I consented in fact as I'm quite proud of my breasts ). When, for a brief time, I took testosterone post-orchidectomy, my body decided to convert it to estrogen into female range. Doctors were baffled, although there's a coherent path for T to E conversion through the aromatase. Right now I'm on a very low dose of estrogen and yet my estradiol level is equivalent to a pregnant female's. I have even been getting morning sickness. My medics are once again scratching their heads. But the point here is surely that this is just one of many examples of the complexity of sex, not just gender? If you feel an incongruity between your gender assignment at birth and the person you feel you are, it's probably because somewhere deep inside you that's exactly what your body is telling you for a reason. Whether that's in your chromosomes, hormones, alleles, receptors, recessives, etc. etc.: somewhere in there are one or more genetic bodily imprints that are trying to express themselves. Dysphoria is not just a state of mind. It's a condition of body.

 

 

 

I've heard in many places that most people don't actually know what their chromosomes are, so transphobes saying "your gender is your chromosomes" is just plain wrong. Not to mention if gender were the same as sex, you know transphobes wouldn't hear it if intersex people said they were non binary. They don't care about facts, they just want things to be simple. Humans love to categorize for some reason. I do it too. Sometimes it's useful, sometimes it gets out of hand.

I have a pretty harmless example here. The other day I was reading about how two different movies weren't competing in theaters because they had two different types of audiences. The audience for one was 40% female and 60% male, while the audience for another was 70% female and 30% male. That's a lot of overlap, isn't it? They also mentioned that a movie was more popular with people over 25 because 50-something percent of viewers were over 25. But aren't there more people in general over the age of 25? And the movie wasn't really made for kids, so of course that demographic is going to be smaller. While this isn't that important in the case of movies, I've seen similar generalizations on medical websites. "The people who have this problem are about 55% female" turns into "women are more likely to have this problem than men" which eventually can even turn into "it's very rare for men to have this problem."

 

Also that's very interesting. I have heard of testosterone converting into estrogen (and I believe it can go the other way as well) and it's neat to hear the effects of it. Even if you don't know why it's happening, your body knows on some level what you want. That's not to say all trans people experience things like this, but from what I've heard it is more common for us than in cis people. I remember reading about how PCOS is much more common in trans men than in cis women. At the time, I read that as "They're not actually trans, it's just their hormones making them feel that way." (Thanks mom, lol). But I get the feeling it's more the other way around.

[Mason26]

On 8/29/2023 at 2:17 AM, Birdie said:

Yes, I have always been intersex AMAB based off of the "external organs" only. 

It wasn't until puberty that my body decided it wanted to go "female", and I was given a couple years of testosterone to "correct the problem". 

 

45 years of "boy-mode" meant hiding rather large curves and such. 

 

Fast forward to a couple years ago and my curves "really blossomed."

 

Pressuring my doctor enough and I finally got the tests that answer the questions. 

 

I have PMDS, I was born with a uterus and fallopian tubes. The extent of my intersex has always been much more than external. Physically I am more woman than I am a man!

 

The 45 years of boy-mode and testosterone treatments should have never happened!

 

Of course my doctor won't admit it, and refuses to give me the letter needed for the courts to change my gender. 🙄

 

So here I sit with my DD's, and very curvy body. Getting addressed as ma'am even dressed androgynous....

With my ID saying: male 😐

Ugh, I'm sorry you have to deal with that crap from your doctor. I see you live in Texas, it must be hard down there. In my province at least, I think you do need a doctor's note to change your legal gender, but you can self declare as non-binary or just have your gender removed from your license (not sure how it works on other documents). That's interesting that you say you're physically more female than male. That proves that external organs aren't even the best way to determine sex, never mind gender.

[Birdie]

5 minutes ago, Mason26 said:

Ugh, I'm sorry you have to deal with that crap from your doctor. I see you live in Texas, it must be hard down there. In my province at least, I think you do need a doctor's note to change your legal gender, but you can self declare as non-binary or just have your gender removed from your license (not sure how it works on other documents). That's interesting that you say you're physically more female than male. That proves that external organs aren't even the best way to determine sex, never mind gender.

Basically the only thing "male" about me is I developed testes instead of ovaries. Oh, and I have a prostate.

[Mason26]

On 8/29/2023 at 2:51 AM, gemmalouise said:

I'd love to dress in skirts all year round but its just too cold. I spend most of the time in jeans and heavy winter jerseys as I am permanently cold, I am paranoid about what folk are thinking as they walk past in their shorts and tee-shirts and summer dresses.  I don't think it's paranoia of transphobia, but more a strong feeling that they will think I'm weird, for dressing like its winter in the middle of summer.  When its over 25c I can start to dress more fem, more comfortably, but that's quite rare especially this summer.  My question is why do I care.  Why am I paranoid.  Is it actually latent fear from when I transitioned and when I had a very real fear of transphobia?

 

In actual winter I'll have on three pairs of socks, thermal leggings, Jeans and three jerseys and a coat if outside.  By this time I look ridiculous I am sure.  Hard to feel fem with that lot on.

 

 

I wouldn't worry about people thinking you're weird. I see people wear all sorts of weather-inappropriate clothes all the time. Sometimes I'll wonder "Aren't they too hot/cold?" and that's about it.

If it is about transphobia, that's harder. It's definitely a real threat in the world, and I'm sure you'd have a better understand about when or where it's safe than I would. Be yourself when you can.

It is tough to have to dress a certain way even when dysphoria says no. A lot of times physical comfort will win out for me. But remember that clothes are just clothes. Everybody gets cold. In Canadian winters, everyone is wearing big jackets. Many people look pretty androgynous. It's just a part of winter. Maybe looking for a more feminine style would help you though?

[Mason26]

On 8/29/2023 at 1:11 PM, Avra said:

I've shared that exact video with some people who dismissed it as some elaborate conspiracy or scheme.

Ah, yes, the Transgender Agenda. Our evil plan is to take over the world by... getting people to take hormones...?

[Mason26]

On 8/29/2023 at 1:32 PM, Avra said:

I'm sure it's entirely possible that you genuinely like some of those things. Likes and interests can evolve over time and what you like to do doesn't define your gender any more than what you like to wear does. It's about what you feel and who you are at the core of your being. Everything else is just an outward expression of what you're into and what makes you happy. You don't have to fit into society's boxes.

You're right. I never felt like I was "forced" to play with Barbies. I really did enjoy it. I came up with some pretty elaborate stories, haha. It was weird how I felt I couldn't play with "boys" toys, though. My parents didn't really care what I played with. I'm not sure where I got the idea it was taboo from. A funny little story from when I was really young: My mom got me a Ken doll for I think it was my birthday, and I hated it because he was a dude, I guess? Later though, she caught me playing with it in secret. XD

And yeah, interests do evolve over time. Especially as I've become more comfortable breaking out of those boxes.

[Mason26]

On 8/29/2023 at 1:37 PM, RaineOnYourParade said:

I've found I hold myself to a lot harsher standards than I do literally anyone else so it's a big change in thinking

I do that as well. It's especially weird because it doesn't come from a place of thinking I'm better than everyone else, maybe it's the opposite? Like we have to catch up or make up for our flaws?

[Mason26]

On 8/29/2023 at 1:42 PM, Avra said:

Yeah same. It takes a lot of mental fortitude to look at yourself from that perspective though. I once told myself in the mirror that I looked pretty and then burst into tears because I had never heard that from myself before. Self-deprecation and judgement is so easy but I'm working on it.

Aww, that's so sweet. Sometimes you have to be enough for yourself. Though I haven't seen a picture of you, I bet you're very pretty. I can tell you're kind, and that's the most important part of it, right? You deserve to hear that more often.

[Mason26]

On 8/29/2023 at 1:45 PM, RaineOnYourParade said:

It's difficult for sure. I honestly can't look in the mirror and tell myself I look even decent, even though there are people that tell me otherwise. Brain be like: Yes but they are liars! Sneaky little Hobbitses! (Exposed my inner nerd there hehehe) 

 

I'd like to think I've gotten a bit better at it, at least while looking inward, but it's a process.

I quote Gollum a lot more than it should be possible, haha.

 

For me, it can actually go both ways. Sometimes I really notice my more female features and feel so dysphoric, but I have to remind myself that no one else notices it as much as me. And then other times I'll be feeling really good about myself, look at my face in the mirror, and think "How can anyone see a woman when they see me?"

[Mason26]

On 8/29/2023 at 1:47 PM, Avra said:

@Mason26 Meant to say "liked" - past tense, just to clarify. The following sentence should clarify that further.

No problem! I got what you meant.

[Mason26]

On 8/29/2023 at 1:53 PM, Ashley0616 said:

Unfortunately we are typically our worse critics except for a few times. Once I thought I looked good and at church someone said I think I can get your advice have you been to a drag show? I never felt so crappy and wanted to cry so hard but I just couldn't. I guess internally I have dealt with so much death that sometimes that doesn't even make me cry. 

I'm sorry to hear that happened. People should just mind their own business anyways.

And sometimes emotions don't show the way we feel they should/the way we want them to. Sometimes I get anxious when I'm happy. I think it's more common than you'd expect.

[Mason26]

On 8/29/2023 at 2:04 PM, RaineOnYourParade said:

Man, that sucks. Can't count the amount of times I've been told I look like a basic lesbian -- which I mean, they aren't exactly wrong, but still stings. Am man. Wrong gender, ma'am/sir. (Wrong sexuality too, but hey, whatever)

Nah, I'd say they're wrong. Maybe it's my FtM goggles (I tend to see the dude shining through in people's pre-T pictures/videos), but you look like a guy to me.

[RaineOnYourParade]

2 minutes ago, Mason26 said:

Nah, I'd say they're wrong. Maybe it's my FtM goggles (I tend to see the dude shining through in people's pre-T pictures/videos), but you look like a guy to me.

Thanks <33

[Mason26]

On 8/29/2023 at 1:57 PM, RaineOnYourParade said:

It's like Harry Potter being a destined wizard his entire life except a lot less exciting.

I always wanted to be different like characters in books/movies. Then I realized I was trans and thought "No, not like that!"

 

I try to turn it on it's head though. Maybe I'm not a wizard, but I do have a pretty cool secret that would piss off J.K. Rowling.

[Mason26]

"Reality is an illusion and the universe is a hologram, buy gold, bye!"

[RaineOnYourParade]

2 minutes ago, Mason26 said:

I always wanted to be different like characters in books/movies. Then I realized I was trans and thought "No, not like that!"

 

I try to turn it on it's head though. Maybe I'm not a wizard, but I do have a pretty cool secret that would piss off J.K. Rowling.

Shame that such a great author is a transphobe :((